Satnam Kaur | Ep #39 | Unpacking Postpartum with a Doula

a doula a content creator and also an entrepreneur she’s also the founder of conscious sisterhood which is a network of sisters who are connected and doing amazing things together um so welcome to doctor of the podcast sutnam we are super excited to have you here with us today thank you so much for having me i’m definitely excited to talk about this topic today welcome satnam it’s so great to have you especially to speak about this very important topic for for women which is you know understanding a postpartum um but i think that your background especially is a very interesting one uh to our audience not only are you part of your conscious sisterhood um and have built a network of women who can openly discuss these sort of topics this topic is often not spoken about in the bam community it’s always shied away from and so this is why we are excited to have you to be that voice for many of the women that don’t have that voice and so as we were doing our research women experience postpartum in a very different ways they can experience at an emotional or physical and mental level the general public is more familiar with postpartum depression but it’s just i think a surface level word that’s much more deeper issues or um trauma that is happening at that point and they they go through unfamiliar body reactions breastfeeding issues and challenges with their emotional health with body image and confidence um and most probably things that we don’t even know for people who have not experienced this so as a first would you mind telling us what is postpartum so postpartum is the time period after birth uh from birth up to six weeks and well beyond really um and just something that you said guni about how well firstly we don’t talk about this enough but secondly um like we hear about postpartum depression quite commonly but something that i talk to my clients about and talk to my network about is the fact that our body has gone through a huge event through pregnancy and then giving birth so there’s a lot involved here and for us to for us as women to just think that we’re you know the moment that we give birth like we’re just going to snap and like everything is just going to go back to normal that is a very unrealistic view and so we have to be very aware of that that there are a lot of things that have changed in our body are changing in our body and so there’s a new normal that we’re going to be getting used to after we give birth typically when we go through pregnancy the type of professionals we hear from is medical doctors nurses midwives uh sometimes a therapist especially afterwards but but you are a doula i think that it’s common everywhere so maybe another kind of definition point as we go along our conversation is would you mind telling us what a doula is and and their role during the the pregnancy so firstly i just want to say that you said that do liver is not common you’re right it’s not it’s not common in this day and age right now however my true belief is that when we were back in the villages and i’m sure this still happens i know it definitely happens in like indian villages um african tribes mexican communities that a doula was a companion um sometimes called the midwife um during birth and pregnancy and so when you when you’d be giving birth you’d be calling upon your doula to help you know that that idea of it takes a village you’d have your family members around you you would have the village midwife or the village doula to help and support you through your pregnancy and through birth and through postpartum as well so a doula is a trained professional companion for a mother and for families throughout pregnancy birth and post birth so adula will have undergone training so that she can provide emotional practical and informational support so something that i have had said before is that is a doodle like a birth partner so a doula doesn’t replace a birth partner or any family member but is rather there to enhance the entire experience for the family and is there is there a difference between um a doula and a midwife because people often get that confused so so a midwife is medically trained a doula will have been trained how to support a pregnant person and her family but she’s not medically trained and um there’s this concept where you only need a doula if you you’re doing a home birth but if you’re going to the hospital you don’t need one um could you kind of talk more about that yeah that’s definitely a misconception of all of the doulas that i have met they have all been in attendance to births in hospitals or birthing clinics and at home as well a doula is there for every step of the journey and if your journey is not a home birth and it’s going to be in the hospital and that that is what a junior is there for like doulas are recognized professionals within hospitals and uh like i’ve i’ve got like an official doula badge from uh you know the bc doulas association pieces whereas where i live and so i have to show my badge every time i’m going to go to the hospital and support a client so that is definitely a misconception a doula can be there in a hospital with you too interesting um and so if i understand correctly a doula is really that support system is there like a layer that a midwife is not able to provide that’s an interesting question um the way i see it a midwife is doing her job and she’s going about her day and she’s probably going to be supporting lots of different women whereas a doula is just focused on that one person and i think that kind of emotional care can sometimes be missing from the medical system i’m not saying that that is everywhere it’s just something that i have personally noticed from working with clients and you know just interacting with various um medical fields is that yeah the emotional care is not always there and so to have somebody on your side somebody that is there to vouch for you and and to guide you in a very neutral way i think is um is priceless for a new mother or anybody that is pregnant or giving birth and earlier you said that postpartum experience is actually from the point of birth to about six weeks after birth right how long is that process for does it go on for just the six weeks or is it a longer duration i think different doulas do different things so the most common way that i’ve seen a doula support somebody postpartum is that there will be phone calls and home visits a couple of times after giving birth but it really does depend on the mother’s needs um so something that i’m just going to mention something that i’m doing with my current client is that we have arranged for six to eight sessions um when i’ll be visiting or when will be you know catching up talking that kind of thing um for after postpartum and that was specific to um that client because she said i am scared that i’m going to be in postnatal depression and so i want as much support as possible and the thing is it doesn’t have to just be you know sitting around talking and like literally that’s it there’s a lot of information that i think for first-time mothers especially that they are missing they don’t they don’t know what they’re supposed to do sometimes and they’ll have guidance around them and they’re probably going to get a lot of mixed messages and where a doula comes in is that she’s able to provide that information so that a woman can make the mother can make a decision for herself so it’s about empowering the woman in that situation and and giving her all of the things that she needs in order to make an informed decision so just as an example a doula can help with breast feeding so she’s not a trained lactation consultant but she may be able to help with providing information of the benefits of breastfeeding or what breastfeeding might look like for women because it’s um very different to formula feeding for example and so a doula is there to to support in that instance and it’s somebody that you can talk to and you know you’re just gonna you’re gonna get a neutral response you’re not going to somebody’s not going to try and a doula is not going to try and sway you in a certain direction a doula is there as a non-judgmental support person um and another way that a postpartum duda helps is that the actual experience of giving birth it needs to be debriefed from because the moment that the baby is born or babies are born and a mother is looking after those children she has to be so selfless and she’s giving so much of herself at that point and so the the opportunity to actually talk through a birth experience um kind of gets missed out because there’s so many things to do and sometimes a first-time mother especially is just trying to get to grips with the fact that a baby needs feeding every few hours and you know the the there’s this sleep deprivation there and so um a doula once again is is there to help um support that mother through the experience that she just had and to actually process it too yeah i think that as much as we want to theorize you know make it as a theory the pregnancy or or the delivery process or the postpartum it’s a very unique experience from one woman to another and and there’s different layers to the experience that’s the emotional the physical and the and the mental dimension then as you said you are in it and you don’t necessarily have time to go on google and just say i was like what is the best way to do this and what is the best way to do that and then it just becomes endless and so i think that it’s it’s an interesting choice to make of saying i’m gonna i’m gonna rely on this person who is very knowledgeable also have like different experiences of other women to actually guide me through this and uh have these resources of information but with your experience what are some of the unspoken stories uh about postpartum that you can share with us so you’ve already mentioned postnatal depression and you’re right it is probably the thing that gets talked about most commonly and as it should be too so some other common things that i’ve seen are struggling with breastfeeding and questioning your own ability to actually breastfeed menstrual irregularity it can take time for the body to come back into balance so that you actually have a period and then it may take time for the menstrual cycle to balance there can be pelvic floor weakness which is something that i think can be prevented as much as possible during the pregnancy period and there’s also the issue of body image and feeling like is your body ever going to go back to normal and like i said at the beginning there is a new normal that a person needs to come to terms with that the body is going to be different from now on and it’s not necessarily a bad thing but we can definitely miss the body that we were in before being pregnant so all these ones that you’ve mentioned uh when we were researching came up but one thing that struck to me was loss of hair and you know for for women we are very attached to our hair as well and so having that process going through i’m just i’m just thinking the impact on self-esteem must be pretty um pretty strong so what is your you’re experiencing that yeah i think you’re so right that loss of hair is something is something that we’re not expecting when we’re in the second trimester of of pregnancy then that’s when our estrogen level is peaking and that’s when our estrogen levels are growing at that point and it’s it’s the trimester where everything feels like it’s really good your hair is really shiny you’re glowing you know that pregnancy glow that people talk about and we’re not expecting that level to ever come down but yes it does start to plummet at that level at that point of postpartum and it’s something that we really struggle with and i’m just going to share something personal here a close family member of mine she had just given birth and it was probably a few weeks afterwards and we were all around and you know we were being that typical indian family that you know brought all of the family around and she just went into room and she said i just need to cry and i was like okay is everything okay and she was like i’m losing my hair and i don’t know what to do and she is somebody like me she wears um a turban at the start and so all of that was hidden under there anyway but she was she felt so um low about it and it’s something that it’s again it’s just the body coming back into balance so it is something that we can expect to happen but yeah i can totally see why it’s something that we are shocked by because it’s something that we’ve probably not experienced before and the first thing that it impacts is our confidence and our esteem for ourselves and again it’s just another one of those things that is making us question what is happening to our body now and to be in informed about it either through a doula or you know the people around you that have this knowledge i think is essential to a postpartum person so there is this concept of breathing your baby out and not needing as much medical intervention so of course you have your medical professionals around you to support you and be there if you know if if the need arises but a but birthing is a very natural process if you think about the centuries of civilization there wasn’t always a trained doctor or a trained midwife you know you had the local village midwife that was there to to support you and being able to birth without the medical intervention that was a thing and i think that’s something that has been taken away from women where a birth is treated as a medical emergency and that a woman has to have many many people like invasive in her space whereas a woman can birth very freely with people that she is comfortable around um in a dark space that is a very mammalian thing to do to go and birth in the dark somewhere um if you if you do research into different animals when they birth they are um it’s usually in the middle of the night where it’s dark and they can just be in their own space without having people in their face basically and being able to being able to be vulnerable right and and not have it having a private moment because it is a very private moment exactly yeah it’s a private moment if you think the entire birth experience me i’m a very spiritual person so this is the angle that i’m taking it on is that birth can be a very very spiritual experience and if when it’s treated as a medical emergency you what happens is that a woman starts to question her own ability and it will slow down the birthing process which is how tear tears happen and especially if a woman is being encouraged to push when perhaps she’s not ready or she’s not mentally prepared for it it can lead to tearing of course a woman can be very conscious throughout the entire pregnancy process and birth process and still tear it is a common thing and it can take months to heal from but taking care of yourself in those um in those first few weeks after you have given birth after you have ted is very very essential to that healing process the point of us talking about it is also to first of all for women who are going through that to see well you know it is normal it it will happen it might happen and um just brace yourself and and you know uh don’t be so critical of you and one thing that i noticed as we started the conversation and that’s why i want us to talk more about this the the tiering process because even among women they won’t openly say yes i got tears and you know this happened because there’s a certain shame and even when tasha just introduced that and she said vagina hotels in a way where it was a bit i was i was in pain okay i felt like i’m pain but it’s something that it like we need to to be a bit more less touchy-feely about this it’s like yeah it is you know it is uh something that happens and so what my question i guess the follow-up question to understanding the healing process of it is that it will impact your intimacy at some point um because you have to heal and i’m sure that we will go over it um towards the end of the episode of how we can help you know uh breath work with regards to this but in that healing process there’s also you know your partner for example with who you you have to deal with in this recovery process and how does that usually impact women the tearing process with their intimacy i think you hit the nail on the head with what you said about shame we as women generally even actually i think all of humankind deals with body shame in various different ways and so having a vaginal tear it can make somebody feel like there is something wrong with them or that their body is somehow um in defect now because they have torn and the the entire room the entire vagina entire reproductive system is a very very sensitive part of the body and so so it’s about understanding that you need to give it time and i think there needs to be an open communication happening between partners um about what is happening with a woman’s body and she needs to feel very comfortable with her partner to be able to share this and a partner also needs to be very understanding about what the birthing mother has just gone through and so there needs to be a lot of time given only when a woman does feel ready to be intimate again is when she should do that um and we can go into okay i was gonna say we would we could go into so much stuff there just talking about intimacy but i’m gonna leave that i mean you can’t let’s go there one of the reason why i think it’s an interesting direction to go is because as you just mentioned in the beginning is that we the culture from three of us we’re coming from which are south asian and i’m sure other communities from the bam community would definitely relate to this is that talking about intimacy is not something that we openly do and it’s sometimes shameful and again so when you do get married then it’s like oh just get it on and you know you nee you’re supposed to know all all these things and all the different impacts the reproductive um organs are generally such a taboo is that we are kind of a bit weird about it that’s i think that that’s a it’s a thing so you don’t necessarily have someone to confidently go and speak to about these issue and oh again shame comes in it’s like oh it’s not something i’m supposed to be speaking so i want to kind of set the example of us three going there and understanding like the intimacy part yeah so i just mentioned that there needs to be an open conversation had and i think that is throughout your entire relationship i don’t think it’s just about postpartum and again it’s one of those things that within our communities we’re not encouraged to talk about and it’s intimacy is seen as a shameful thing again i’m a very spiritual person but let’s let’s take the spirituality out of it for a second and just think about the physical act of being intimate if you don’t know about your body if a if your partner doesn’t know about your body yes then there are then there are going to be things that can happen that may leave you shocked or hurt injured in some way and so there needs to be open conversations about sexual health within our community and anybody that’s in a partnership they need to be able to openly talk about these things without shame and there needs to be a lot of kindness and compassion from both sides but what are some of the things any child-bearing person who suffer from tearing can share with their partners as they rediscover or they venture again into intimacy there’s one thing to say it’s painful it’s healing it’s what what are some of the things that can be told or done so that you can facilitate the the process so something that i think that a postpartum person should be sharing with her partner is is her feelings surrounding it so if she is feeling shame exploring with her partner where those may come from because it may well be it’s something that she is personally feeling but her partner may not be and so a partner can you know very lovingly encourage um that you know that doesn’t that whatever she is feeling uh you know definitely acknowledge it validate it but uh encourage her to to um understand that that’s not the way that her partners needs her and uh the fact that there needs to be time taken in order for the body to heal i think between partners they can discuss um other ways to be intimate and it doesn’t just have to be intercourse i like personally i think it’s um you know it’s it’s somebody’s choice if they feel like they are ready to then by all means do so but i would say that a woman should take as much time as she needs in order to feel ready to have intercourse again and in between that find other ways to be intimate i was just thinking now but what about the other side what can men or women who are around people going through postpartum so that the process seems less um difficult i think we can go very simply with this so i i think it’s best for a partner to not overthink what they need to say and say the same kind of things that they would say to their partner whether they were postpartum or not so things like i love you you have done a great job and we can take all the time that you need i’m here for you and if you need any support we’ll get that for you and it’s it’s just having that compassion and kindness that your partner has just gone through something very big and i mean i’m thinking about my husband right now and he definitely saw after postpartum just how much my body was going through and he was very very um compassionate and kind to make sure that i had all of the support that i needed and personally i feel like he’s just like the best example that i can give of somebody that was so supportive and i think it’s because i think it was because he could see or you know he saw me he noticed me all the way through the pregnancy and he made sure that i was taken care of because you know i was going to birth this child and you know there’s there’s that aspect of it that he wants to make sure the baby is okay but also just seeing me as this amazing vessel that is doing this amazing work of creating a another human being and so i don’t think we need to overthink what kind of things to say it’s just being just being there very supportive very loving and having your partner be able to trust that there’s not going to be any pressure involved um because you know the postpartum period especially when it you know it comes to having intimacy is going to vary for all women it could be a long time and so there’s having that patience and just knowing that there is a new normal that you are both headed for now if i could put a description to what you were explaining is that to be compassionate as you said but also just be present with the person that you’re with right and if you’re present with them then you know you’re tuned in to their their needs and and you’re not going to push or push the boundary because you have a desire right if you move away from i guess the intimacy aspect in the postpartum experience there’s another layer of also the interaction with the family and the community the tribe right and many a time the entire family would be there to kind of embrace the the new mom and also the new baby and a lot of the focus goes on to the baby but also kind of disregards the mother’s experience and in them being there it also kind of imposes an obligatory level to the mother to like entertain this that they’ve come there what is your experience with your own clients in in how they navigate this something really interesting is that i have seen a shift and i’m going to talk about this so with some of the first clients that i worked with they were very anxious about family members coming around and they they didn’t feel empowered enough to say within their family that i don’t want this to happen and i remember speaking somebody that wasn’t a client but just a friend of mine she had a lot of back pain and she was like her children were like 10 11 years old and she had this back pain that just wasn’t going away and i said oh did you injure yourself and she said no i know exactly what caused this and i was like okay what is that and she said after i had given birth i came home and it was like the very same day she said or the next day something like that and she said i had to go clean the bath because people were coming over and i was like what do you mean you were cleaning your bath and she was like i had to scrub it and i had to get down on the floor and i had to just scrub it because you know people were coming around and after that i just feel like my body never healed my back never healed and that’s a very very common thing within our communities i’ve heard numerous stories this isn’t just from clients i’ve just heard numerous stories about women sometimes even being told by family members mother-in-laws for example um saying that you know people are coming around you need to go make the tea you need to go make this and that and we’ll look after the baby and it’s yeah it’s what you said there’s just this complete disregard for what a woman has been through and it’s a very uh patriarchal way of being and you know again i’m gonna go back to our villages that that care was given to the mother our mother wasn’t expected to get up and do things um i remember even seeing once uh there was a midwife that was talking about this and she was saying that a woman should just go to bed for six weeks after she has given birth because that is the amount of rest a minimum amount of rest that she needs and so yes dealing with all of these people coming coming to your home expecting to cuddle with the baby expecting to uh talk to you and you being in a state of mind where you can actually hold a conversation when you’ve just had two hours of sleep in the night um you know i think that is it is something that we um uh are so blinded to uh as a community and there needs to be this education that no if somebody has had a baby in their family leave them alone and until they say until they welcome people in and this is the shift that i have seen from clients at the beginning where they just you know they they were anxious about the fact that this is imminent this is going to happen how am i going to deal with it and now my most current client of such a beautiful beautiful girl she she has said that she’s spoken to her partner and their families and said we will let you know when we want you to come around and we will send you pictures or whatever but do not come around and i just thought that that was so beautiful she was so brave so in in opposition to this right in western culture there’s also this uh thing where as soon as you have a baby you need to like empower yourself and and i’m not saying it’s bad right but there’s this um advertised or publicized um uh image of women who are back into the gym back into hiking and and they’re carrying their baby when it’s only like they’re only like three weeks old and they’re just going about their lives and is there an aspect or element to uh the postpartum experience where maybe there is conflicting information right about how people should behave towards mothers and and their experience postpartum i think what it is is that we expect it to be a very clear-cut black and white manual of what postpartum is going to be like whereas it is going to be different for everyone so because we rely on doctors and professionals and medical uh professionals we are disempowered to actually tune in so i feel like if if women feel confident enough to go and do that hike and have their babies then go ahead like just you know be my guest and and if they feel like they need rest and and tell their their parents off and say that give me a minute before i and i’ll tell you when i’m ready i think that that’s that’s what we i guess it’s missing is to empower women to to be in tune with what they need i think that’s exactly it yes being in tune with yourself and really trusting that you know your body better than anybody else in the world and so you have to think about what it is that you need that’s it ties into the intimacy with your partner it ties into the kind of people that you want around you and yeah it’s like you said if you want to go for a hike and you feel like you are physically able to do that and you’re not going to injure yourself further then fine yeah do that why not um i remember speaking to somebody postpartum um she’s very famous on instagram and you know she’s a fitness um she’s a fitness coach and i remember speaking to her before she gave birth and she was so frightened that she was going to lose her body the body that she had worked so hard on for years and i remember saying to her that because of all of the work that she had put into her body chances were that her body was going to make a comeback in a far more stronger way and this was just individual to her and she said this herself uh i think it was like about six months after she’s given birth she said my body is in the strongest place it has ever been and that worked for her so after six weeks she you know she took it very gently i remember she she documented her whole postpartum journey when it came to fitness and yes she was back in the gym after about six months but that worked for her for me personally and for countless of the women that would not be the right way to go and with regards to your your background in yoga how do you marry those two experiences or professions to support your your birthing mothers i am so happy that you asked this question so there are so many different passions in my life but yoga and meditation and breath work is definitely very very high up on the list and so one of the biggest things that i support with is breath work breath work is so so vital to our well-being whether we are pregnant or not because most of us are not breathing correctly and we’re not breathing long and deep enough on average a human has about 16 breaths a minute and i just did this with um a few months back with some of the sisters in um in the mendeley through conscious sisterhood where i asked them to time themselves on how many breaths they were having per minute and it was like 20 25 whereas an average is going to be about 16. and i remember my yoga teacher saying to me while we were in training that if your breath is if you’re breathing more than 16 times per minute your body is in a state of stress and anxiety wow and that’s yeah good to know um yeah so if you’re breathing in that way you are in a straight stress imbalance so it is the first thing that we can look to when we feel like we are out of balance and for all of the challenges that we have just spoken about so far the breath is so important in bringing you back to balance and bringing that calmness and that grace and that opportunity to be able to tune into yourself so what i would recommend is that a person that is pregnant starts with breath work when they are pregnant and it means that that practice is built upon so that when it comes to postpartum and you’re experiencing this you know this scattering of your your mental energy your mental health then your breath helps you to stay clear-headed helps you become energized helps you to stay calm and this is what i mentioned earlier about breathing your baby out that you can literally use your breath in order to birth as well so breath is such a huge component when it comes to your wellness and certainly through pregnancy um when you’re going through the postpartum period you’re literally on your reserve energy so your body has built up all of this energy and then you have used it to grow your baby and to birth your baby and so the state of your breath is going to be an indicator of how much reserve capacity or energy you actually have and so by consciously breathing or using a particular breathwork technique what we’re doing is we’re increasing our health we’re increasing our vitality our connection to our self and we’re creating that foundation for our energy reserves to be replenished i really like the explanation because that really puts into perspective what the body has done and is going to be doing and what it requires right which really ties in well to our next question which is what are the top three tips to navigate the postpartum experience i would say number one is about trusting you trusting your body being in tune and listening to what to what your body needs because you’re going to get a lot of subliminal messages that you’re not capable of being pregnant you’re not capable of birthing and that you’re not capable of looking after your baby when the exact opposite is true you are more than capable your body was designed to do this and so it’s about really understanding what is happening with your body and maybe even having this expectation that your body is going to tell you what it needs you can do all of the all of those things you can be pregnant birth and look after your baby because your nature allows you to do so so you must must trust in that you have to trust your instinct to know what your baby needs as well that’s another thing so it’s that you have been the closest person to your child in 10 months and your baby just wants you because that’s what they know that’s what they feel comfort from and so it’s also about trusting that the connection that you have with your baby uh you know you need to lean into that um yeah so um you i already said that you know your child better than anybody else in the world you know just like i’m sure you may have experienced it either personally or with somebody else uh mothers say that they just know their children and i certainly feel like that with my son as well that if he’s not feeling well or you know there is just something out of balance i know about it before anybody else does because i can i can just sense it and that’s not to say that you’re always going to have the answers so yes of course listening to yourself is one thing but having that support system around you is very very important um and that’s actually tip number two so it’s ensuring that you have the right support team whether that is your partner family members friends a doula but i would say don’t overdo it with having too many people around us all because that is that can lead you that can get you mixed up and you want to stay as focused as you can on healing and focused on looking after your newborn because that’s that’s already plenty to be to be processing um yeah tip number three is that we get so bogged down in all of the things that we have to do for our newborn child that we do often forget ourselves and that’s you know something that we have talked about in this conversation so if you’re privileged enough to be able to provide your child with warmth shelter food or milk then beyond that all you really need to do is give your baby love don’t get bogged down in all of the things you know that we hear like you should do this you should do that just remember that love and kindness is what your child needs more than anything else and something that i share with my clients is this as well that every time that you give birth you are born again so that pregnant person that mother is being born again each time and so you have to honor yourself through that process just like we give compassion to our to a newborn that is crying because they don’t know what is going on in the world in that same way we have to give ourselves that time and space as well to go through that process so tip number three is give yourself time give yourself time to heal give yourself time to process give yourself time to bond with your child but also to bond with yourself again and because of me i have to give you a fourth tip as well and that is to breathe because everything that you’re seeing around you however challenging your situation may feel at the time if you can breathe through it just know that it is going to pass try and stay as present as possible and maintain perspective of what’s happening around you and i know that’s it’s it’s much more easy easier said than done because when your baby is crying and you are sleep deprived and you don’t know what is wrong in that moment all you can do is breathe and stay calm and trust that you and your baby will get through it together i think that’s a great way to to end our conversation so suddenly we have our rapid fire questions i’ll go with the first question what is the first sign that you are out of balance the very first thing that i notice now after doing years of breath work is my breath and sometimes i’m so busy that i may not notice my breath so it’s probably going to be something like a headache if i know that my breath is rapid and short and erratic then i know that something is out of balance and as a follow-up question what is the method of coping when you are when you notice that that you’re out of balance i have like an entire toolkit of things now that help me come back into balance they range from moving my body from making sure that i’m eating the right meals making sure that i’m drinking enough water making sure that my environment is supporting me and this is something that i teach in a program that i’ve created called the 14 day self-care master plan it is me sharing all of the things that i used for when i was out of balance and i actually was in burnout all of the things that helped me to get back into balance um and so the 14-day self-care master plan is something that i am so happy that i i shared with the sisters in the mandalay but i’m now going to be sharing it as a program available to everyone because i could see the impact that it had on uh the sisters in the mendeleev so yeah i’m really really happy to be bringing that to the entire world awesome and the last one is what is one book that has impacted your approach to well-being or wellness it’s so hard to choose one but i will just choose one um and i would say that right now i’m reading atomic habits i’m reading it for the second time and i think that that has probably had the biggest impact on me because when you realize that your wellness isn’t something that you do for an hour a week or an hour a month it is something that you must work on every single day but it can you can just spend as little as 15 minutes just trying to improve your well-being um or you know supporting it then um i think that you get a lot further so that’s called the compound effect right so all of these different habits they build up and again that is something that i’m teaching in the south k master plan awesome i think that’s a great great ending to our conversation well thank you so much for being on our show today and just sharing your insights and your experience um being very generous with it thank you so much i have enjoyed this conversation so so much and thank you satanam if you enjoyed this episode go ahead and select that follow or subscribe button for now stay safe and we’ll see you next week