Krishna K. Vellasamy | Ep #43| Can Online Dating Lead to True Intimacy ?

or professional medical advice hey guys i’m tasha hey listeners this is gooney and we’re here to discuss lifestyle medicine hi everyone so today we’d like to speak about modern day dating after we’ve all watched this popular show called the tinder swindler i think has traumatized some of us um me particularly uh it has brought to a light that you know a lot of psychological and behavioral pattern behind online dating that we like to unpack which brings me back to the ultimate question which is what is the intent when we are on those dating applications and can it lead to true intimacy and for this we have krishna kumar velasmi aka as he’s known in his community a uk-based graduate psychologist currently completing a doctorate in chartered western counseling psychology and psychotherapy he specializes in lgbtq ban addiction and generational trauma krishna is currently working therapeutically with the sri lankan tamil refugee diaspora ban child sexual abuse in the tamil community in an organization that specializes in hiv called positive ease in london so welcome to dot if the podcast krishna it is going to be a very interesting conversation and we are super excited to have you thank you thank you for having me well welcome krishna so to start this conversation we want to unpack what is the intention for using online dating applications so there was a study done where participants noted that they used dating apps in pursuit of validation of their self-worth and 40 percent of online data is reported that being on a dating site had a positive impact on their self-esteem what does these 40 percent really imply i question what were the demographics that was represented in the 40 i personally as a clinician i will look at the 40 and study the demographics of people who who actually took part in the survey and then i will see ah so the 40 percent of for example blonde blue eyed etc etc the ideas of beauty that is that is predominantly across the world now the 40 feels good because the world is mirroring back to you that you are attractive on the basis that the idea of beauty is this the set measure terms of measurement does that make sense it does a lot because i see myself being very self-conscious when i’m in switzerland for example where the there’s a big white majority i don’t think that i fit the standard so i know i am conscious that i won’t get potentially as much likes than my white counterpart uh female blonde uh which when i’m in southeast asia i know that you know i am attractive to the greater population let me show you a story that how i found out after many many decades of feeling unattractive i didn’t know that i was good looking or even okay i didn’t know i i still don’t know what that means one day i was in cambodia in in siem reap the angkor wat temple i came across this figure of this huge male body from the khmer period that had the exact curves of my tummy and the thing and i looked at it going oh oh it took a uncle watch cm rip male figure to tell me that okay you’re okay you just cannot measure yourself against the western world which is what all of us do if that’s all we we see trust me people say you people say oh you don’t even know no i cannot believe it but people have no idea this is why it’s called internalization of how we kind of adapt to our external environment that you don’t even know that you have internalized it right until you have a child and you say don’t go under the sun you will get karuppu you will get dark and then you find yourself going oh this has happened to my my friends they will go oh my because it takes a certain circumstances to bring out the internalization drawing it back to online dating how do you how do you see that as an impact on the psyche i i think it’s a an extraordinary loaded question because there’s there is no one answer to this however i can say this the impact of internalization that you grow up i’ve heard my auntie say oh krishna but you know even though krishna kumar is dark he’s quite okay so you internalize it but as a kid you don’t forget the implication of it because as a kid you tend to kind of be in the present you live through the day but it’s been internalized so the implication is you build self-worth particularly if you if you come from cultural backgrounds like us uh where the concept of individuality is quite western because in our culture you are either someone’s son or daughter niece cousin et cetera et cetera the son of the sister of the cousin all right so because it’s down to the collective identity which is has extraordinary benefits for to to go through life and i and i think it’s a blessing if you have it however the individual cause and effect of beauty ideals and self-worth it’s something that we we cultivate over time and if it’s been the cut and if the child developmental stages if the cultivation the developmental stages is interrupted with all these things and the self-worth which is really the value added to our worth if it’s linked to the external achievement so the self-worth as an individual is not developed on its own through joyful expressions to joyful being alone the encouragement of being alone so we don’t know who we are we but we know who we are in relation to other people because that’s the socially constructed narrative that we have so we get self-validation by a construct or framework that society relation to somebody with relations to someone so it’s all external but how are we using that on dating apps ah fantastic question how is this projected how is your childhood projected onto a dating app is the question is there a possibility that our childhood desires unmet childhood dreams unacknowledged childhood wishes unheard be projected onto some savior externally from us irrespective of the gender that you are attracted to and if so a dating app how can it be the reason why there are so many singletons out there it cannot be it doesn’t make sense yeah yeah dating app is really a gateway one of the fundamental things that i i always tear up when i when i say this so please excuse me if i cry luckily i don’t have makeup on so i’m good um i think that if you have the privileged in today’s world with a full stomach you know where you’re gonna get your three meals and you have a family background or an environment that doesn’t persecute you as a man or a woman in pursuit of your version of happiness you are you have it good and if if we talk about it into dating world what is dating dating is a wonderful gift a wonderful opportunity the if you watch tinder swindler you will see if you take away the actual protagonist the bad guy that that was taking advantage it has a psychological implication on these women but what were the women’s responsibility as well yeah were they projecting were these victims they’re truly victims and i hope they really get well and trust again and and start dating again according to what works for them in the future and i really mean that but question is as a clinician i ask was their projection on to someone you have met based on lifestyle based on economics what was going on there so in my training which is existential pathway um it’s called the existential modality we we ask the question what is going on with this victim that was projecting this particular narrative of being uh in love with somebody who has a private plane goes here and there what was what’s that what’s that about are we talking about are you then looking to be saved yeah i mean like in the show she the one of the girls the first girl i think she talks about the fairy tale right so she gives the analogy of like uh someone’s sleeping yeah yeah and they’re swooping her on her feet and like you know uh kind of captivating her uh with his whatever like luxuries right and while i watched it i was cringing and i was like is it something that i internalized to some degree and then why is this girl saying this out loud to anyone but actually it made me think about it because it in a lot of ways that that statistic that guni was reading earlier that validation aspect of it i think people need to be very very conscious and also aware about what they’re getting validation for while they’re on these dating apps because otherwise you don’t know what you’re getting validation for and then you go into something exactly like these goals hoping and wanting something else and then you find yourself in this is a terrible situation uh where you’re in debt but this could also lead to lots of different things like abusive relationships and so what are the dynamics you’re you’re inviting into your life right because you haven’t addressed these things and like for example when you were explaining earlier the internalization of things because of beauty standards and getting that external validation right for a person like me who’s a bit bigger and then all my life in society i’m told oh someone who’s bigger wouldn’t be able to have a relationship so you have to be a certain size so that you can get a relationship and so if you don’t have that you should take anybody who gives you attention because you don’t deserve to get attention because you’re not this particular beauty standard and so in a bigger overview right when you get this combination of people coming into a space where there’s so many things unaddressed and if people are unaware or don’t have self-awareness um this is a recipe for disaster in my eyes which is why i have actually personally taken myself off all dating applications because it’s too messy for me right so 49 of online data’s report looking for marriage and then 47 report that they are specifically seeking for casual sex there’s a lot of confusion in this and as you said you’re basically looking at a pool of people that are interacting with different intentions with different patterns with different psychological profiles becomes complicated now look the way you have explained it it’s wonderful i’m now going to complicate matters for both of you even further and confuse you gunny you mentioned that there is a pool of people out there in terms of the dating world then we we bring our own stuff into we we bring our own story into it you say that there is a pool i say where is the pool when you are swiping left and left well was it left to right or north or south i don’t know but apparently this swipe right oh left and right so you you swipe left and right so your pool there is no pool actually you are by looking at a person’s photograph and a couple of things that’s written you don’t have a pool you are actually projecting your belief system you are projecting your desires and this is based on a photo i question how can a complex human being be put in a small little gadget i always get rattled up when people blame technological stuff going on to a dating app is a choice if the congregation isn’t working for you in the buddha calls it in the pali language sangha and in tamil it’s sangam if the sangha means the people of like-mindedness why sangam is important people of like-minded like-mindedness has the extraordinary power in this human life to either uplift you or drag you down so therefore how can a gadget out there be responsible for the choices you are making so therefore i question are you bringing projection on to other people via this app so again i will end this this this this part by saying if you are in the world and if you have the privilege and the luxury to date and find your own life partners get your intentions right because you at the very least educate yourself in knowing the differences of are you am i looking for a husband or a wife am i looking for a lover or am i looking for a life partner these three things are completely different you will have to ask yourself when you’re going on a dating app are you going to look are you looking for a husband because as a feminist as a woman in your own right if we’re talking about 1950s or 1940s where women were not out working much culturally speaking economically speaking then yes husbands were important but now women are working now women are you’re independent you have the right to say no this is not working for me therefore why why are you looking for a husband why are you not looking for a life partner because life partner means through the drake dating process you are going through a checklist finding out if they are good for you as a individual good for our families is it a because that is why i’m saying it’s a privilege if you are in a position of dating it’s a privilege and why are you not utilizing your privilege building on your ancestors contribution towards your rights to choose who you want to live with to unpack what you say the privilege to date that statement for me was hit kind of differently is what does it mean let’s let’s unpack dating what would you have in mind when you say that um i when i say dating is a privilege i’m saying that in relation in measuring against our ancestors it means you have something that millions of other people around the world who live in one monoculture mono language monoethnic kind of of environments so therefore it is a privilege that has been bestowed on us to say this morning i’m going on a date with no fear of persecution whatsoever so therefore it is a privilege so therefore perhaps what is the intention behind an individual going on to a dating app what is the intention what is your approach because a privileged tool that if that you can utilize to empower yourself at the very least to find out what kind of people out there without going into the vibration of negativity however you have to be clear of your intention what am i looking for one of the fundamental things that you could do is google mazlo pyramid of hierarchy where the theory goes that unless the the bottom two layers is sorted out which is pertaining to our physical environment food water security or home uh is is is managed and resolved then you cannot be you cannot live your best life and evolve that’s what it says so if you apply that to your dating thing what are you looking for are you looking for a husband in the classic sense or a wife in the classic sense no and that’s what i’m saying it’s a privilege that comes with education and we’ve we’re all building on each other’s ancestors yeah of all the contribution so we have a moral duty and a sacred duty if we have the privilege to date to use it to pay respect to our ancestors that have paved the way for us i just want to come back on the the muscle hierarchy of me when they say love and belonging they also say friendship intimacy family and sense of connection so that actually brings out another layer right so what is intimacy oprah mommy taught me one thing taught me one thing that completely revolutionized my life like i don’t know 10 years ago tell us i was in miami at the beach feeling very very low on that because i was surrounded i didn’t know miami beach was for baywatch people who looked like a model me turning up there going hey what’s going on here and that was like oh my god i feel so ugly but anyway after that i went for a run i had a i had a coffee and i was sitting at the beach thinking and then suddenly this literally this gust of wind came and this piece of paper hit my face i’m going yeah what is this this is mama winfrey tell you it literally said each one of us each one of us from the day we are born we are looking for fundamental questions and in her 30 years of interviewing people and she’s interviewed thousands right and i grew up with her literally most of my stuff i i i live and she brought me me up my other teachers that paper i remember going hit me and i was thinking gosh i’m trying to be we say malay control lower i’m just trying in the midst of all these beautiful people in in in fantastic bodies i’m trying to look lower and mama winfrey just come sense the wind hits the photo and i take the phone and i take the piece of paper and she literally said join us on blah blah blah was one episode which i uh which i went to see that night um it said each one of us from the day that we are born and i use this for my therapy every client i meet i bring it we are all asking for answers to four questions every waking and sleeping moment of our lives do you see me does what i say matter to you do you hear me when i speak will you hold my hand when i am most vulnerable naked and feeling ugly inside i i channeled mama winfrey mama winfrey saved me 10 years of psychotherapy money let me tell you it is not cheap out there so yes if you have not answered or have been given these answers that you are asking for when you are growing up in your own nucleus family in your nuclear family then at work at university and then suddenly you reach a certain age and then you meet somebody you know you know left or right anyway left or right left and right left and right so you are go marching they’re going left right left right and then meeting somebody going uh even cherry it doesn’t work that is projecting that lack of four questions that you are asking and you want an individual to give you that validation so yes guni you are looking for self validation externally well good luck to you how did dr wayne dry we’ll say how’s that working for you um so let’s let’s repeat this full question just for the sake of it oh i will do it let me channel uh uh win free money please oprah mommy win free auntie yeah we thank her for this and we thank her for this let me tell you okay four fundamental things if it’s not met in your childhood you will carry that within you and in therapy i have found over and over again the wounded child is trying to heal but never had the opportunity to heal and find themselves and they’ve now become adult and the wounded child is actually there out there dating asking these fundamental questions do you see me do you hear me does what i say matter to you will you hold my hand when i don’t have makeup vulnerable naked and feeling ugly inside and does your eyes light up when you see me that is all we’re looking for so you’re quite we as you can see we have started from is intimacy possible i answered yes it’s possible but question is how authentic are you and what is your definition of intimacy people confuse bearing nakedness with another human being with psychological intimacy being naked with another person sexually speaking is not intimacy it’s a gateway just a minuscule starting dot in getting away the close to psychological intimacy and psychological intimacy has nothing to do with sex it takes courage to be psychologically intimate with someone it takes courage to be vulnerable and true authentic way of being in my opinion i’m very passionate about this is to be vulnerable so sexual intimacy it is not psychological intimacy if you want husband then you don’t need psychological issues because you’re playing a role if you have a kid if you’re very good sorry let me pause that that’s that’s a really good one because this is part of the stat that we found right it’s a big percentage of people who are going onto applications to look for a husband or a wife so are they on there to play a role and if so why but then i mean to be devil’s advocate is it wrong for them to look for a husband if that’s what they want and if they’re in a situation in life that you know this hierarchy of needs is not met and they need a partner for that or they need a husband for that that is what we are exploring do you need a husband if we take an example of uh a woman in her own right that has come a long way if this individual is working and if they can stand up for themselves and speak for themselves and they are going ahead with their life visions do they need a husband or do they need a life partner the same applies for a man right if a man is individually okay he’s evolving he’s worked on himself etc etc is he looking for a wife if so it means that if i were to say i’m looking for a wife thank god i’m not it’s never gonna happen if i were to say i’m going to look for i’m looking for a wife and i’m not getting to be married i would ask in my therapy room define what marriage is and define the role of a husband and a wife because in that defining you get a narrative of what this individual is looking for but if they say i want a life partner like again mama winfrey said a lot of people have confused that one day you are the center of attention on their wedding day a lot of people confuse that with the actual characteristics and facets and complexities that is involved in making a life with another human being so she that’s why she said she will never get married she’s got a life partner and she always says if you’re just concerned about wearing that white dress or that fantastic sari or whatever it is the culturally that you wear have a party and get it over and done with and then start dating without actually getting married so are we talking about marriage or are we talking about life partnership what is your intention behind using the dating platform nobody should blame dating platform how you’re utilizing it why are you not having fundamental q a sessions as part of your dating process so what is intimacy and can it be found in the app yes you can find but how sincere are you do you know who you are what are you without the life partner just take a moment and imagine you will never get married what kind of stuff comes up for you so if so are you looking for a partner or a husband or a lover to fill that void or are you looking for another human being out there that is courageous like you asking courageous questions because it takes courage to be authentic because courage means you’re going to be isolated how have you seen like the impact of people going into dating apps and then not getting the the outcome that they want how have you seen that impact the mental health of your patients and your and your clients and what does that show up as what it does is if you do something over and over again and your personal data in terms of responses from external in out in is quite negative what will happen to to any human being out there is the reinforcement of i am not good enough and that this sentence i am not good enough takes so many different shapes and sizes from color of the skin to sexuality to society particularly our nucleus family they have a way of programming buttons in us that we are not never going to be good enough that gets reinforced when you are out there dating so unless these buttons that we are all walking around with feeling fantastic intellectually i’ve got the money i’ve got this brother so now i’m going to go out dating this this this and this someone out there is going to come and push the button going you thought you got rid of it because that’s going to happen over and over again so again miss winfrey said when something is brought to you through a situation your job is to stop take a moment and ask this fundamental question what is this here to teach me because if you don’t ask that question that lesson is going to be brought to you over and over again until you get the lesson only the people that are bringing you the lessons going to wear a different pair of pants and skirts and sarees and trousers but the vibration is going to be the same trust me and that’s why i love ekka tole that which you resist shall persist it’s not about intellectually doing something and laws of attraction no that which you are you attract not that which you think you are you attract that which you are and so if you keep saying to yourself i’m not good enough i’m not good enough but externally you’ve done all the trimmings that you are and you are putting yourself out there like again it takes courage to be up there but internally if we haven’t resolved our stuff there is a strong chance we are going to project our internal desperations onto the people that you are dating so therefore how free are you when you are dating where is the space to enjoy and laugh and have a good laugh with another human being alive at the same time under the same sky but we are not able to see that human being the magnificence of that human being with their own stories with their own laughter and joy yeah it’s it’s really simple it sounds very simple and it’s very obvious but then it’s not easy because we grew up in this world where we are told that we have to be someone else we have to portray a certain image so that we can get certain opportunities and when i came back from studying in australia my my experience with just like applying for jobs and whatnot i have to pretend or portray that this is who i am and i have to suppress parts of me so that it doesn’t seem too intimidating or too much for them to to comprehend and then later on when i had a much better understanding of myself and having that awareness when i was on dating apps i would see the links of how i would carry this certain energy that i was carrying and at interviews and saying like why is it that i’m putting up like a window and why is it that i’m bringing this to the dating arena of my life because then i’m trying to portray or put myself forward in a certain light so that someone else can see me in the light and then be attracted to me and then say oh i want to date this person because she seems together because she has xyz but that is not who i am like there are parts of me like that but that’s not all of me and so then it becomes harder every time when you interact with them more to be to show like the parts of yourself that you’ve suppressed right so i find that it’s a simple solution you’re what you’re saying is like uh okay yeah you can do it it’s clear but then how to do it is not it’s not that straightforward because you you have to face your own demons and like you have to come to those difficult conversations difficult with yourself first and then with people and then only you open that door with i understand and i do believe that you need to know yourself first before you go and you know look for someone else but that said we’re all in different walks of life different stages in our lives and the awareness or the lack of awareness when we are you know meeting people is a very tough thing to judge now let’s go on the next step is like how do we build this intimacy with people first it starts with authenticity um being authentic for yourself being clear about what life is um ask existential first of all i think the self-inquiry must take place within you and sexual intimacy dating intimacy it exists but intimacy is psychological it’s courage it’s not about sex it is not about projecting um socially constructed narratives of masculinity and femininity it’s about two individuals coming together as a team and managing the co-existing living together is not the same as dating or and that is life partnership that means you are going to live with another human being with moods with everything with financial issues with all these things because life is fluid from room to tomb everything else is the lottery but how you deal with it it’s much easier if you have another fellow comrade who says today we’ve got five ringgit or pounds wherever you are and let’s deal with that that’s life partnership yes you can get intimacy you can you definitely get intimacy but are you intimate with your own self starting with your own intimate thoughts pertaining to that which you’re desperate for and people can only meet you where they’ve only as far or as deep as they’ve met themselves so if you’re expecting someone to have deep intimacy with you i mean i’m just if i’m expecting someone to have deep into intimacy with me i need to have that with myself first before i can expect it from someone else because then then when they give it to me i’ll be able to manage it and understand it and accept it embrace it as opposed to like i don’t know what to do with this so i’m gonna just reject you or like sabotage this dynamic so that i don’t have to cope with it and you know let’s let’s define intimacy what is intimacy it is the intimacy is really the four questions the five questions isn’t it do you see me do you hear me does what i say matter to you will you hold my hand when i’m weak vulnerable and feeling ugly inside does your eyes light up when you see me do i imagine because there is a lot of research has been done out there particularly on the psychology of falling in love which is a socially constructed narrative nobody fell in love for thousands of years it’s a new thing people love people came together married had children and that’s why it’s there is a psychology of falling in love it’s lots of books out there so are you so when you’re dating you must ask yourself i think am i wanting to fall in love because when you say fall in love it you can you will at some point fall out of love is that what you’re looking for are you looking for the effects of the euphoria on the physiology the the heightened senses and emotions that were looking for or are you looking for that silent intimacy for me intimacy is silence i sit for people and i have this i’m very blessed to have cultivated this with most of my loved ones like this this silence can you be in silence for two minutes for the people that you’re dating test it out when you go for dates just sit for two three minutes and wait let’s say two okay i don’t want to be punitive try for one minute without playing any roles or saying to look intellectual or your interest nothing just sit for one minute and just be your body will tell you that’s intimacy being naked having sex with someone that is just the starting point to the psychological intimacy that we are looking for so therefore dating is a luxurious privilege that must be utilized to empower your life choices and if dating apps doesn’t work for you you must find creative ways to meet other people online dating it is a vehicle it’s a vehicle it’s an option it’s a tool but again if you’re looking for intimacy start with yourself and and then when you feel you’re you’re getting there ask fundamental important relevant questions be courageous and be courageous to ask those questions because you might come across as a weirdo when you go and ask on a date what are your views on you know spirituality or what are your views on self-growth what will you do if you have gay children yeah what will you do if your child has got darker skin and the society that you live in does not approve of darker skin you know these are all existential fundamental questions that must that’s why i’m saying it takes courage right you must know the life partner is going to be there as a team to protect love nourish your offsprings so therefore we’re looking for a life partner that’s going to be around yeah and so have lovers have um have lovers and get married have husbands but these are all just labels what what we all want is a partner to be be there for us and answer the questions on a daily basis and be there for us and also take responsibility to be courageous and call each other out particularly if you’re heterosexual cisgendered heterosexual if you want to get married and have children i would say to you be encouraging you to discuss with your potential husbands or potential husbands or life partners when you have children how will they feel uh respond when you are out of shape carrying a child and then put on weight and you know these are kind of fundamental things will they will they will they be punitive if you are no longer the the lady that you were prior to having a child what will be their default positions what will happen if you have a child with special needs so dating means it’s asking questions courageous quest existential questions when i’m trying to imagine myself asking some of those questions to some of my dates and i’m thinking i might not like what they’re going to say feel like it’s confrontational or i might take it personally i think the reason why we’re not going there is because there’s a fear of what we’re gonna hear yeah particularly if you turned up with a nice list of things and coming with a balloon and then that bubble it fits very nice visually and you think damn i’m really hoping this is gonna that is what we’re talking about projection you’re projecting all these things and if you’re not asking fundamental courageous questions you’re the way you have said it what is that you are afraid your bubble will be and you come back i like the sound can you see that can you see that mushroom going so you’ll come back with a negative impact that just because someone has rejected you on some points or some stuff it is not personal it’s just life pointing you to a different direction to a different person that’s all it is but if you keep going back on your dates feeling negative and internalizing stuff you need to stop date your dating apps take time out and go to talking therapy or work on yourself we get lost in you know the details of things when it’s happening right and because of societal pressure and kind of the narrative that you should be married by a certain age you should have children by certain age and not completely unfair because for women we have a biological clock and so for those who want to have children they also feel their desire to get this process going quick so that they don’t miss the boat you know so to speak but it is very easy to get caught up in and get lost in that process and say i got rejected so i need to keep changing myself so that i can uh shape up to be somebody’s potential partner but what you just said is a good reminder to tell people that you know if you’re not you’re not feeling good when you’re on these abs pause uh take a moment take a breather figure some stuff out go and get the support or guidance you need and then come back to it i think culturally our culture stipulates that taking care of ourselves is selfish no it’s actually self-preservation so when people show you are the first time believe them and when you’re dating look at how the person is in the surrounding in that moment are they treating the person who’s serving you with love and compassion when people show you who they are the first time your job is to believe them trust me we’ve all been there trying to intellectuals going parvum but you know pity and there must be this no these days if when i see someone show me themselves i’m like lord thank you so much i’m gonna buy myself my own mars bars and snickers so you have better because that is a gift don’t show me who you are let me see who you are i think there’s a really nice way to end before we close off we always do our rapid fire questions as a human being what is the first sign uh that you sense or see when you are out of balance when i feel irritated immediately i go oh something’s working out i quickly find the balance so i find irritation or or lack of patience for things that don’t bother me usually if it starts bothering me then i know i mean i’m out of balance and the second question what is your method of coping when you’re out of balance uh the go-to on a daily basis that is uh it’s short meditations but i have a ritual when i start in the morning i do my southerners my vedic southerners i do my sittings my meditation i do not come out of the house without my an hour and a half starting process and i find that when i don’t have that when i don’t do that my day goes off balance and i invite a lot of challenges so i start with my routine routine that’s a good one and lastly what is one book that impacted your approach to well-being or wellness oh yeah that is hands down a cup a new earth yeah well thank you so much krishna thank you so much for having me and i just want to say no matter who you are or who you think you’re not no matter where you are know that there is a reason you are here if you are alive and you are on earth you matter but stop looking to matter through the eyes of another but matter to yourself start there but thank you so much for having me it’s been really fun yeah same here if you enjoyed this episode go ahead and select that follow a subscribe button for now stay safe and we’ll see you next week